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Poster: William Tell Date: Oct 24, 2009 4:50pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Global Warming is a FACT.

Angular, I hate to say, this is simply NOT true....beginning in 75 he has argued consistently for one position (warming). But, I could careless about Gore--he's as important to me as Michael Moore or George Bush.

With respect to data on the Earth's temps, please provide sources to document your assertion.

I was in college in 75 and the profs (physics folks at all the top uni's) there provided abundant evidence that warming was coming based on CO2, and "normal" cycles. I have an equation provided by one predicting EXACTLY what has happened temp wise, 30 yrs later...NO one at the time was taking the "ice age" biz seriously...those folks were whackos none of us believed.

Seriously, as a scientist, I can assure all of you that it is simply a slam dunk that it is occurring. The only question is the degree to which we can do anything about it, or whether we want to (ie, if you figure we should continue to improve health standards, accept the consequences, etc.).

I really don't mean to be confrontational, but ANYONE that believes the hogwash about the data suggesting the Earth is not warming the past 25 yrs is in fact MORE "head in the sand" than the anti-evolutionists (and if you are one of those, stop reading this).

This is NOT a rant. This is not propaganda. Read 1000 articles by SCIENTISTS that get PAID to prove the status quo WRONG, and you will see that everyone that TRIED to suggest warming was not occurring CANNOT do it. It is NOT a conspiracy.

Sorry, but that's the truth. What you DO with it, is in fact a political, social, etc., outcome, but the data ARE in. I will not get on a bandwagon to suggest we should do this or we should do that, as "shoulds" are not for the faint of heart, philosophically speaking, but data are data.

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Poster: dead-head_Monte Date: Oct 26, 2009 8:44am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Global Warming is a FACT.

data sources
Carbon_Dioxide_400kyr.png


data sources
CO2-Mauna-Loa.png


data sources
Co2maunaloa2003.png

The Very, Very Simple Climate Model
modeled at NCAR (nat'l center for atmospheric research)

Effects of Climate Change Today
by NCAR

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Poster: jacnes3 Date: Oct 26, 2009 9:01am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Global Warming is a FACT.

Go hug a tree (like Mickey Hart)
This is all a plan that you Libs are falling for hook, line, and sinker. Al Gore would like you to buy carbon foot prints from his company.
Go read some more of the N.Y.Times.that we be out of biz soon.
Thank God I stopped smoking pot.

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Poster: B.C. Cox Date: Oct 25, 2009 12:43pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Global Warming is a FACT.

Tell, this being my ethical thinking behind mass consumption of "ICELAND" drinking water.

Get it while it's fresh and cold.

http://www.nordictravelguides.com/images/stories/Iceland/iceland_dettifoss.jpg

This post was modified by B.C. Cox on 2009-10-25 19:43:36

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Poster: angular Date: Oct 25, 2009 4:32pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Global Warming is a FACT.

Yawn.

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Poster: William Tell Date: Oct 25, 2009 5:29pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Global Warming is a FACT.

That's an argument? What happened? No data to back up your conspiracy web based rant? When you actually read the science behind it, check back, k?

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Poster: billydlions Date: Oct 24, 2009 5:29pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Global Warming is a FACT.

Hey WT,

I dont think most would argue against the premise that the world has warmed over the last 50-100 years. I think that most of the non-believers are doubting that the cause is CO2 vs other naturally occurring events such as sun spots or unknown causes. So there's more to it than what you point out in your post. Should we take this seriously? Of course. At the same time, while we work on cutting co2 output we need to continue to keep an open mind that the science may not be settled yet as some believe. What are the explanations for the cooling over the last 5+ years?

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Poster: high flow Date: Oct 24, 2009 6:13pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Global Warming is a FACT.

I wonder how all this would have effected Jerry's tone. Anybody with me?

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Poster: William Tell Date: Oct 24, 2009 7:20pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Global Warming is a FACT.

Ha! Wait a minute, it was probably those multiple pack camels per day that really pushed us over the edge! How much CO2 was Jerry responsible for singlehandedly!?

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Poster: skuzzlebutt Date: Oct 24, 2009 9:59pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Global Warming is a FACT.

I am.

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Poster: William Tell Date: Oct 24, 2009 7:21pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Global Warming is a FACT.

Right, BD--you are correct to indicate that the precise causes, and the degree (hah! get it? unintended pun there, I assure you) to which we can do anything about it is the 64 dollar question.

Normal (ie, natural, whatever that is), man induced (by a variety of processes), etc., etc., can all be contributing.

And, as you and MS (hmmm--assume you have a more than passing stake in all this, eh?) allude to, what exact actions would be prudent IF you decide that sacrificing development in the Third World should be undertaken to try to effect a POSSIBLE change in the whole biz...?

AGreed, we don't know exactly...but, I would take issue with the "past 5 yrs" issue you raise...those data are in the minority (in terms of which datasets--ice sheet melting, glacier retreats, ocean temps, and so on--gathered by whom you pay attn to, etc.), by far, at least according to the many folks I have contact with in this field, etc., etc.

So, I would still say the science is "settled" (to the best extent it can be on such a topic) in terms of "is the Earth warming?" but AGREE entirely as to "what precisely is the cause(s)?" and "what can we do about it?" and so on and so forth...

Hope I didn't come on too strong with Angular in that prior over the top reactionary post of mine! Thanks to you both for taking a civil tone in cont'ing the dialogue!

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Poster: jglynn1.2 Date: Oct 26, 2009 6:40am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Global Warming is a FACT so is Cooling.

When the historical patterns are looked at it is seen that warming and cooling are cyclical.

Are humans contributing to the cycle? - Most probably

Does that mean the cycle will be broken - Highly Unlikely

Bottom Line - The more we heat up the 'warming' phase the quicker we get to the 'cooling' phase.

Never underestimate the 'water vapor' factor!!!

http://lwf.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/gases.html

"Water Vapor is the most abundant greenhouse gas in the atmosphere, which is why it is addressed here first. However, changes in its conentration is also considered to be a result of climate feedbacks related to the warming of the atmosphere rather than a direct result of industrialization. The feedback loop in which water is involved is critically important to projecting future climate change, but as yet is still fairly poorly measured and understood.

As the temperature of the atmosphere rises, more water is evaporated from ground storage (rivers, oceans, reservoirs, soil). Because the air is warmer, the relative humidity can be higher (in essence, the air is able to 'hold' more water when its warmer), leading to more water vapor in the atmosphere. As a greenhouse gas, the higher concentration of water vapor is then able to absorb more thermal IR energy radiated from the Earth, thus further warming the atmosphere. The warmer atmosphere can then hold more water vapor and so on and so on. This is referred to as a 'positive feedback loop'. However, huge scientific uncertainty exists in defining the extent and importance of this feedback loop. As water vapor increases in the atmosphere, more of it will eventually also condense into clouds, which are more able to reflect incoming solar radiation (thus allowing less energy to reach the Earth's surface and heat it up). The future monitoring of atmospheric processes involving water vapor will be critical to fully understand the feedbacks in the climate system leading to global climate change. As yet, though the basics of the hydrological cycle are fairly well understood, we have very little comprehension of the complexity of the feedback loops. Also, while we have good atmospheric measurements of other key greenhouse gases such as carbon dioxide and methane, we have poor measurements of global water vapor, so it is not certain by how much atmospheric concentrations have risen in recent decades or centuries, though satellite measurements, combined with balloon data and some in-situ ground measurements indicate generally positive trends in global water vapor."

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Poster: William Tell Date: Oct 26, 2009 6:46am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Global Warming is a FACT so is Cooling.

You know another underappreciated aspect is that plants will be able to photosynthesize more with higher levels of CO2 around...in teh 70s and early 80s botanical types thought this might improve productivity signifianctly, but not sure where that stands...

I guess Angular dropped out, and again, I in no way think this is simple, nor that we are the sole cause, nor that we can develop a quick fix, etc....but most data from many different kinds of sources show warming is the trend the past 100 yrs, withou doubt. The "cooling" data sets are always suspect, outright falsifications, misinterpretations, or extremely limited indicator variables.

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Poster: jglynn1.2 Date: Oct 26, 2009 7:09am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Global Warming is a FACT so is Cooling.

I was thinking in terms of long term cycles.

There really is no doubt that Ice ages do occur and that over millions of years the planet has been cooler and warmer than it is currently.

There is a fairly 'tell'ing chart on this site

http://www.scotese.com/climate.htm

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Poster: William Tell Date: Oct 26, 2009 12:22pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Global Warming is a FACT so is Cooling.

Ah, yep; I follow you...just hope this one isn't of such magnitude that it throws prior history off...but hey, in the end, we'll be dead, right? Of course, me likely sooner than you!

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Poster: bluedevil Date: Oct 26, 2009 12:31pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Less Pirates establishes Global Warming is a FACT

http://www.venganza.org/about/open-letter/

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Poster: jglynn1.2 Date: Oct 26, 2009 1:14pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Less Pirates establishes Global Warming is a FACT

Makes me think about 'string' theory in a whole new way.

Does this mean that Somalia is really just fighting global warming?

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Poster: bluedevil Date: Oct 26, 2009 1:21pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Less Pirates establishes Global Warming is a FACT

To err is human; to Argh! is pirate.

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Poster: high flow Date: Oct 26, 2009 2:51pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Less Pirates establishes Global Warming is a FACT

In the name of the Father
The Son
And the Holy Meatball

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Poster: bbbrew Date: Oct 24, 2009 8:40pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Global Warming is a FACT.

Here is a good source concerning your global cooling question.
Check out the 2008 Global Temprature Anaysis
http://www.columbia.edu/~jeh1/